John Malanca raises the bar by discussing the emerging field of psychedelics in the treatment of mental health and the distressing symptoms of chronic illness.  His guest, Brad Burge, BS, MA, Director of Communications and Public Relations of MAPS (Multi-disciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies) from 2009-2020 and a psychedelic expert, was instrumental in organizing the 2017 largest Psychedelic Science conference in history.  Tune in to learn the truth about this emerging field of Psychedelics and how they have the potential to change lives.

While cannabis is considered a treatment for many different diseases, psychedelics are used as part of psychotherapy to assist in the efficacy of treatment.  These chemicals and naturally occurring substances are not considered a cure nor necessarily part of a daily health routine.  Psychedelic therapy may involve an altered state of consciousness and can be beneficial in the doctor/patient relationship during structured and monitored therapy of growing interest is the practice of “micro-dosing” psychedelics.  This is a naturalistic event which allows for a more conventional experience with some benefits and may or may not require therapy.  Some of the properties of micro-dosing psychedelics mimic the use of pharmaceuticals to treat depression, migraines and other distressing and life changing chronic illness.  All psychedelics are Schedule 1 along with Cannabis.

Join the discussion of the fascinating effects of psychedelics, whether they are naturally occurring or created by man to assist in the expansion of the mind and the treatment of chronic disorders.


Psychedelics and Mental Health. With Brad Burge

John Malanca 0:01
Now, Welcome back, everybody. This is John Malanca, with United Patients Group – Be Informed. Be Well.

Well, first off, I just want to thank everyone who’s been following us, not only since 2011, when we started united patients group, but in the last year, by doing these podcasts, many of you have contacted us over the years to help direction what to do, where to go, what questions to ask, what to stay away from what to avoid. And, you know, it’s been something that can I’ve taken pride in launching an outpatient and patients grouping being that group, not only for you, the patient, but the family members, but also the doctors, we’ve invited your doctors in on calls. And so we’re the informational site. The topics that we’re talking today, we’ll get into shortly, but and we’re talking about this, share why we’re talking about this because you our listeners, have come to us and say, john, we have questions about this, questions about that. And so that’s why we are touching up on these questions today. If you have questions, please submit them, please hit the subscribe button. We’d love followers. If you have any questions or comments, you can email them directly to me at john at United patients group, or put them down in the comment box below. Today’s guests. This is a new one for us. And so I’m really excited. You have heard me talk about the brand before pretty much as a third party, but excited to get him on the show. Brad Burge first time. How are you doing? Brad? Good to have you on.

Brad Burge 1:38
So good to be here. JOHN, thanks so much for having me on.

John Malanca 1:41
So thanks for joining. Brad Burge He earned his BA in communications and psychology from Stanford University and his MA in communication from University of California, San Diego in 2009. Back in Stanford, it was 2005 my apology there Brad, he directed Communications and Public Relations for the multidisciplinary association of psychedelic studies also known as maps from 2009 to 2020, where he engaged daily with journalists and media producers around the world to enhance public knowledge and psychedelic research produced the largest psychedelic conference in history, which is the psychedelic science 2017 conference, while also developing and evolving maps international brand and outreach strategy. In 2020, Brad founded integration communication to provide the fast growing psychedelic industry with effective, ethically based PR and communication strategies that keep them connected with the communities that they strive to serve. Brad is passionate about finding better ways for humans to work, the pharmaceutical and digital communication technology that 21st century when he’s not plugged in, is what I love Brad, you find them in the mountains carrying a backpack somewhere down a long trail. So, boy, what a great visual that is. So, Brad, welcome. Welcome to the show.

Brad Burge 2:58
Thanks so much and such an honor to be on here.

John Malanca 3:00
Your honor to have you on here. This is this is a this is a new topic for us. Many of our listeners have heard me shared about psychedelics, when it comes to migraines. And you were the reason for that. Back in 2000, I want to say 12, maybe 13. Chris and I were coming back from a cannabis conference in Denver, Colorado. And we were at the TSA terminal. And we saw you there which we didn’t see at the conference. You said no, I’m gonna at another conference called maps. And, and I and I said What’s that, and he said is about psychedelics. I said, they have a conference on psychedelics, etc. Yeah. So what do you guys talk about? You said, Actually, the studies that we did on the topic we did on this list was mushrooms, which we’ll go into and migraines. And I said, Come on, he said, No, go read it. And so we went back. And I researched it. And I said, I’ll be darned. So over the years, you’ve been this imaginary guy, this friend that we’ve shared, not only on this show on on, I’ve talked about it with patients that have called us but other shows I’ve been on so great to have you on here to psychedelics, it’s still you know, people still have the visual of 1960 LSD trip and down on Haight Ashbury since you and I are both in the in the Bay Area, listening to the Grateful Dead and, and all that and so he talked about this, because, you know, before we got on, I said, What do you call it graduate? Call it a drug? What do we call it? You should a great talk. We will talk about it. So please have at it.

Brad Burge 4:36
Yes, psychedelics? Yeah, it’s a mouthful. From the perspective of most people, they’re pretty terrifying sound. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but we’re at the point now, where we’ve seen so much happen with the mainstreaming of cannabis, that more and more people, millions of people that we wouldn’t normally have expected are starting to ask well, what is what is actually going on? Here psychedelics just like cannabis have a long history of stigma, been subject to the war on drugs for 50 years now. Now, before they were illegal, both cannabis and psychedelics were used non recreationally That is to say spiritually or for therapeutic purposes. Cannabis was, of course in the United States pharmacopoeia until it was removed. psychedelics were never in the US pharmacopoeia, but they have 1000 plus year history of use in a whole wide variety of ceremonial and religious contexts. So we’re getting to the point now, where we have more investment, more philanthropic contributions, more widespread interest in using psychedelics for beneficial purposes, then we have really ever there’s more science happening now into the use of psychedelics and therapy than there ever has been, ever. Even prior to the 1960s in the 1940s and 1950s. Certain psychedelics LSD, mescaline, psilocybin mushrooms were being explored for therapeutic uses. But then that stopped and now we have more trials happening then even then. So really, we’re seeing the biggest heyday of psychedelic research

Unknown Speaker 6:15
then we’ve ever seen ever.

John Malanca 6:16
Yeah. And there’s like, as you’re mentioning it, you know, cannabis was in the pharmacopoeia since 1937, or something like that, and then banned. It was a it was a sketchy topic talk about now everybody in their mother even talking about on today’s show, Good morning, America, cannabis discussion. psychedelics, was like that, until recently, people are now starting to talk about it, you’re starting to hear it and, you know, does it help with PTSD? Does it help with depression, anxiety, depression. And so can you talk about that one, not only the benefits, but also research, which is happening, and you made mention that it wasn’t in the pharmacopoeia here in the US, but has been used for spiritual events for years. And you always hear about that, and you’re hearing more about that now. When it comes to psychedelics here in the US. How many states have legalized? It is, I believe Colorado is is are they the only one that has is allowing psychedelics right now, if you want to say I’ll throw, you throw everything into that category of psychedelics, you know, LSD, MDMA, mushroom, and what’s another term for mushrooms, the psilocybin design? And so are they all thrown into that category?

Brad Burge 7:37
Yeah, psychedelics are a huge general broad category of of substances, compounds, molecules, drugs, whatever it is, we want to call them depending on their use, that have very little chemically in common a lot of them. cannabis is one plant with a lot of different compounds or chemicals inside of it, psychedelics, or a whole wide range. So generally, when we’re talking about psychedelics, we’re talking about this broad class of chemicals, all of whom are grouped together by their general effect on human consciousness. Now, whether that’s through the serotonin system, or the dopamine system, or others, endogenous systems, they’re all grouped together in this category, because they have a tendency to bring subconscious material to light, that they bring up material that’s stored in our body that’s stored in our memories, and they make them more accessible, whereas they wouldn’t necessarily have been otherwise. The word psychedelic means mind, manifesting psyche and below, so to bring the mind forward. So one major difference that we’re seeing between psychedelics and cannabis and how they’re used is cannabis is really an everyday treatment for all of the different conditions that it could be used for. This is a treatment that people are looking at for symptom control, for reducing symptoms of whatever disease might be underlying that psychedelics are, by and large, looked at, in a very different context, not as a daily treatment, but rather as part of psychotherapy. So psychedelics, rather being the catalyst to make psychotherapy more effective, whereas cannabis would be the treatment and of itself. So we’re looking at very different treatment models.

John Malanca 9:16
Yeah. And you mentioned you mentioned every day and the same thing when I’ll use depression. Depression is is is pretty relevant here. And I think there’s about 17 million cases the depression in the United States. In last year, I’ll use last year 2019 in the in the study, but affects us especially here with COVID. I mean, I know a lot of people are going to are going through this right now that the human touch, losing their jobs, not being able to get out and do their everyday normal thing. But when it comes to psychedelics is your thing and not in every day. A lot of people are used to taking the pill, the pharmaceutical pill, which is an everyday thing, there could be unpleasant side effects. It’s a palliative, it’s not a cure. And so as you mentioned, With the psychedelics and let’s go with mushroom, I’d love to have you back on because I know the list just goes on and on and on and on and on and on different topics. And so with this, you don’t have, well, I was talking about cannabis. And again, this is all new to me, then the topic Copic Copic comes up quite a bit. You know, people are free to teach. And they always say, Oh, I want the medical part of the cannabis plant, which is CBD and a lot of people’s mind. And I don’t want the recreational part to achieve C and I say THC is needed in in many cases, and it’ll even help you like epileptic epilepsy, you know, you can have great CBD does work, but add micro dosing of THC. And that success rate will definitely will go up 70% coming from 17% with just CBD. And a lot of I’ve had doctors on the show, we’ve talked about this. And they said, Well, actually, I microdose daily with mushrooms. And I said, I wasn’t expecting that at you, you know? No. Can you talk about that one day, you don’t have to take it daily, but also the few doctors I’m working with in this industry that are doing micro dosing, as well. And what are the benefits of doing 111? I guess dose or one one tries to try what’s what’s, what’s your terminology for this?

Brad Burge 11:22
Yeah, I guess you’d use it once versus using it on a more regular basis. psychedelic therapy, it that involves higher doses of the drug. Okay, so so that often involves altered states of consciousness, different feelings coming up. And really, from my perspective, and the perspective of the folks who’ve been in the field for the longest, it really requires psychotherapy to be maximally safe and effective. One could go home and just take a full dose of say psilocybin mushrooms, and hope that the insights that you have are going to be helpful for your depression or PTSD or anxiety. But that’s really a lot less likely to be the case without some kind of guidance or support, at least somebody they’re taking notes for you who’s trained in, in, in holding that kind of therapeutic space. So the psychedelic therapy model, that’s, that’s most advanced right now that’s advanced in clinical trials, and that we’re likely to see enter medical practice, as soon as is that model, where you go into the clinic, and you receive the drug or the medicine right there, you have your whole experience with a psychotherapist, and then you go home, or you stay the night, then there’s follow up psychotherapy that doesn’t involve the drug. There’s preparation psychotherapy. So really, it’s mostly a psychotherapy. But it’s augmented by these powerful drug experiences. Now, micro dosing is something that’s very new, we didn’t hear about micro dosing in the 1960s, or 1970s. So it’s all about these big mind blowing mind expanding experiences, micro dosing is, has just come up, it’s been a naturalistic thing that’s happened is people who are experimenting with psychedelics, outside of research or outside of therapy, are starting to say, Hey, can I turn it down? Can I go about my day, can I use a small enough of this, that it’s more like a conventional pharmaceutical. So that provides, you know, some some benefits. And the research is still out on this, there’s there’s more research happening into microdosing. Now, slowly, but surely. But you know, one of the advantages of that is you’re using the lower dose you’re not having as extreme and alteration of consciousness, it may or may not require psychotherapy support around it, you could just go about your day with a very, very small amount of say, LSD or psilocybin, such that you wouldn’t even notice much of a change. This is what we’re accustomed to, with SSRIs is what we’re accustomed to with conventional pharmaceuticals. What we get from that is, we don’t need to go into psychotherapy, what we lose from that is that we lose that opportunity for the deep work that can happen and it becomes more of a symptom control kind of thing. Where you can, you may be able to reduce anxiety for a couple of days or a week following, say microdose of LSD or microdose of psilocybin, but then you have to do it again. And we don’t have research, we don’t know what happens when people microdose for a long period of time, every few days or once a week, we just don’t know what the risks are. We don’t know what the benefits are yet. So it’s very promising in the sense that it might be cheaper psychotherapy is very expensive. And again, it fits this conventional pharmaceutical model. I think we can have all sorts of conversations about whether that pharmaceutical model is actually valuable or not. But but but really getting at the symptoms versus getting at the deeper cause I think is the main

John Malanca 14:42
what what are researchers currently trying to learn about this? and prove because you said you know, there is no research on microdose.

Brad Burge 14:52
Right, there’s most of the research so we’re in we’re seeing phase three clinical trials. That’s the most advanced stage of clinical trials. Before FDA approval, we’re seeing those for MDMA assisted psychotherapy, that’s with the nonprofit maps. And then we’re seeing psilocybin assisted therapy. That’s with the nonprofit, the Sona Institute, and then also a for profit compass pathways is also working on psilocybin assisted therapy for depression and treatment resistant depression, and those are using the full doses of, of both of those.

John Malanca 15:23
And that’s all here in the US or that overseas.

Unknown Speaker 15:26
It’s both most of the studies are here in the US compass pathways is located in the UK. And maps has trials all over the world as well.

John Malanca 15:35
happen so. So cannabis, right, unfortunately right now, schedule one narcotic were to just fall into

Unknown Speaker 15:43
all of these psychedelics are also scheduled one once as well with the exception of ketamine. So ketamine is a what’s called a dissociative anesthetic, hallucinogen. It’s that kind of psychedelic. It’s very different from LSD. It’s very different from from psilocybin very different from MDMA. It’s it’s, as many of your listeners probably know, it’s already available as an anesthetic. And it was approved in 2000. And what was it 2019 by Johnson and Johnson as a nasal spray for the treatment of depression? So ketamine is a psychedelic, it is also a recreational psychedelic, it is used recreationally. But it wasn’t it

John Malanca 16:30
a horse tranquilizer, horse tranq

Unknown Speaker 16:33
it’s still used as a veterinarian and human anesthetic. It’s used in dentistry and in surgery.

John Malanca 16:40
Who is this for you should nasal spray? It’s a nasal spray. Gotcha. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 16:46
Yeah. So it’s a take home story. So it’s a take home treatment, okay. And it’s the first psychedelic that’s been approved for the treatment of a mental health condition. Again, very different from MDMA and LSD, but it’s technically the first psychedelic to

John Malanca 17:02
be approved. So we Johnson and Johnson, Bob, is this where is Big Pharma involved in all this? Are they as well as our government? Are they looking to say, Hey, we want our fingers in this one as well, like they’re doing with epidiolex and shadowfax, with GW pharmaceutical,

Unknown Speaker 17:16
just in the last couple of years, that is absolutely happening. Okay. For the last 30 plus years, the developers of these chemicals, those who are working with the regulatory agencies, and putting out the press releases and talking to the general public and trying to get support for this research have been very, very small nonprofits, and they’ve had to kind of scratch everything together. tooth and nail, trying to collect donations from people who support the research now, with these phase three clinical trials advancing so well, with people like Michael Pollan writing, in glowing terms about psychedelics, appearing on mainstream news all the time. And more and more companies are merging ketamine now approved ketamine clinics popping up all over the world, or all over the country for now available to provide psychotherapy. With all of that happen, happening. Finally, it’s gotten to a point where investors are seeing Oh, this is not just a pie in the sky idea anymore, but psychedelics are really likely going to be the next major breakthrough for modern psychiatry. It’s been 3040 years since the advent of or 2030 years since the advent of SSRIs antidepressants that we’ve had a genuine, genuinely new class of chemicals introduced to mainstream psychiatry, and that’s what psychedelics are going to be investors are starting to see that big pharma is starting to develop that one of the complications with psychedelics is that most of the psychedelics all of the psychedelics that we know about and have seen for many years and have reason to believe are helpful for the treatment of post traumatic stress disorder or depression or traumatic brain injury or suicidality are all these things. These are old drugs. These are old chemicals that were originally synthesized 4050 6080 years ago, or they’re naturally occurring, like psilocybin mushrooms or Ibogaine. And so, without that profit incentive, that is the ability to patent these compounds, Big Pharma has had to take another route, which is to find patentable, new delivery systems. So ketamine can’t be patented. That’s an old one such as a nasal spray. with cannabis that’s been happening for a very long time, you can’t patent the cannabis plant. You can’t patent THC, but you can patent a synthesis pathway. You can patent the non smoking delivery system, you can patent a patch or an inhaler or depository or a pill or whatever it is that you want and then which we’re seeing, which we’re seeing and that is likely to happen with psychedelics is all of these for profit company, Is our going to come in and be like, hey, what is the net? What else can I provide? What does the market need, and that includes not just psychedelic therapies themselves, so a certain approaches to using psychedelics in therapy, but all of the myriad ancillary services that are going to surround that. So preparation, support, integration, support, counseling, retreat centers, medical device manufacturers, distributions, medical associations, there’s there’s all of these services and associations that are gonna have to be formed alongside of this. Yeah. Yeah, this industry. You were talking.

John Malanca 20:41
I want I want to, before we go into the effects on the brain. I want to know about guiding your thought you mentioned guidance here for a second and as well, and so I have friends here in the San Francisco Bay area that have met with psychotherapists and had gotten guided. MDMA, MDMA, MDMA, I want to say trip trips is not a right.

Unknown Speaker 21:05
It’s entering the colloquial maybe we can say medical trips now

John Malanca 21:08
medical trips. Gotcha. And so it with guidance, and you know, so many people who mean depression affects us all, you know, we’ve all had into some some form of memories, emotion, pain, love, grief, you know, losing my wife. But does it bring the body bounce back to balance? And what does it do to the brain? Is it like the endocannabinoid system where it brings the body back to homeostasis? What is it? What is it doing to the brain?

Unknown Speaker 21:31
Great question. So, like we were talking about psychedelics are a wide, wide class of drugs, and they’re doing all sorts of different things, pharmacologically speaking.

Unknown Speaker 21:44
If we’re talking about MDMA, it’s very different than psilocybin.

Unknown Speaker 21:48
But, in general, there’s been some neuroimaging research, looking at different psychedelics, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, and there are some things in common. One of those things is neural plasticity, okay, is the flexibility of the brain. What it looks like is all the compounds that have been looked at that have some all the psychedelics that have been like that with some kind of effect on the serotonin system, especially have the may have the ability to increase our neural plasticity to allow our nerve cells more capacity for growth, for for regenerating for healing from mental illness from traumatic brain injury. There’s another aspect it’s called the default mode network. So I think there’s there’s there’s a common misconception around psychedelics is that when someone ingests a psychedelic, it produces these these hallucinations that add something to our experience. And that’s where these altered states of consciousness come from. What neuroimaging research has shown is actually that psychedelics turn down activity in large parts of the brain. And these, these parts of the brain that are turned down in activity are called the default mode network. It’s the part of our brain that is just kind of normally awake and alert and activated, I wake up, hey, I’m Brad, I’m gonna go have my coffee, I’m gonna make some breakfast, I’m gonna sit down at my computer and see what my email has, you know, this is just kind of my day you wake up, you’re john, you know, this is what you do, this is where you live. And that’s the default mode network psychedelics disrupt that. So it makes us less likely to fall into normal patterns of awareness, and more likely to break out of those patterns and to do things differently or to see things differently. So if psychedelics are, in fact doing this, and the neuro imaging suggests that they are, is that they could allow us to break out of these stuck states that we might be in, whether it’s depression, whether it’s inflammation, whether it’s chronic neuropathy, such as in headaches, but but but we can change the patterns and take conscious control over what direction we want those changes to go, especially with psychotherapeutic support

John Malanca 24:13
are there, you know, like back to MDMA, ecstasy, you know, high doses, low doses, they say it puts holes in the brain. Are you seeing is that is that is that that? You shake, please?

Unknown Speaker 24:30
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s thanks for bringing that up. That’s, you know, one of the most damaging pieces of retracted science and misinformation that’s that’s I think ever happened in the field of medicine is quite amazing. I learned about it in psychology classes as an example of how the scientific publication process works and doesn’t work. So the holes in the brain around MDMA that originated from a study by a scientist by the name of George Riccardi, and that study was published, I forget in which journal. It’s ric AU RTE, the recorded controversy, published in a big journal, and it showed it they had given MDMA to rats. And they had shown images of these brains that had these big atrophied areas. And, and it was published and Phil Donahue, covered it, on the Donahue show, and millions of people learned about ecstasy causing holes in the brain. Just a few months later, George Riccardi and his team published a retraction to that article. The retraction stated that their team had mistakenly administered the wrong drug to these rats. In this highly publicized, very influential scientific study, they had inadvertently administered methamphetamine.

Unknown Speaker 25:59
Oh, wow,

Unknown Speaker 26:00
rather than MDMA, which is methylene deoxy, meth amphetamine, turns out that methylene deoxy makes a big difference. Lots of meth causes holes in the brain,

John Malanca 26:15
and teeth,

Unknown Speaker 26:17
and teeth, not a good thing. MDMA is not met. So they publish this retraction. But the retraction wasn’t covered, of course, because that’s not as interesting. So that just kind of that that’s stuck in the mainstream imagination. Now after thousands of people having been treated in clinical trials receiving pure MDMA in moderate doses, that’s never been seen, there has been no evidence of neurological damage or cognitive damage at all.

John Malanca 26:46
So what about the spinal fluid? You always hear that you know, it was a big thing in the in the 90s in 2000, Euro Sure, you know, the brain, of course, and then spinal fluid take, you know, is that another farce?

Unknown Speaker 27:00
I’m not exactly sure which Farsi might the scientific farce that might be but there was something about LSD and spinal fluid? I think it was fine. It was it? Yeah.

John Malanca 27:12
I don’t back the Las Vegas days. I’ll just leave it there.

Unknown Speaker 27:15
Yeah, I haven’t heard that. I haven’t heard that in all my years reading research protocols and institutional review board documents that that hasn’t come up as one of the side effects.

John Malanca 27:26
That’ll be another show since I mean, there’s a whole list lifts that I’d like to talk to you about here. risks are there any risks you know, because people always always talking about cannabis and you know, and I say it’s always you hear the plus plus plus plus plus and no one talks about the side effects you know, depression anxiety and I and I feel that some people everyone’s different, everyone’s body’s competition is different. You know, I’m highly sensitive to coffee as you’re sipping on a cup of coffee so I can’t even have coffee you know, my cannabis intake it affects me you know, if I take too little CBD, it keeps me up all night if I take out enough a higher doses puts me sleep which I which I’m using for and so I’m the same, I’m assuming the same thing with with any psychedelic let’s go back to mushroom. So out of all those that we’re talking about MDMA IV, you gain you gain is from South Africa correct?

Unknown Speaker 28:25
Yeah. Ibogaine from from West Africa,

John Malanca 28:28
West Africa. And it’s a route.

Unknown Speaker 28:31
Yeah, he Boga is the route. It’s it’s the plant. It’s kind of a shrub or a bush. And then Ibogaine is the chemical that’s extracted from the Iboga root and administered as part of therapy.

John Malanca 28:45
And I’ve spoken to doctors just in the last couple years about they’ve reached out and said, Hey, I know of you you’ve talked about you talked to a patient and I don’t want to get away from from the mushrooms but with this route, is it true that it helps people on one dose get off of I guess, addictions, heroin, opioid stuff like that?

Unknown Speaker 29:14
It has. It has there’s a lot of case studies that I became is legal for use in a lot of places outside of the US, Mexico, New Zealand are two of those illegal but unregulated Okay, so people have to be very careful which I began clinic they go to make sure that it’s properly vetted and there’s proper medical supervision, etc. But Ibogaine, has helped people overcome severe opioid addiction with just a single dose or just a couple of doses.

Unknown Speaker 29:46
It’s in its own class,

Unknown Speaker 29:50
both pharmacologically very different from LSD or psilocybin or MDMA. And then also, as far as the experience it’s a it’s a nightmare of a trip. What I’ve heard I haven’t done it myself fortunately haven’t had the need to in my life, but it can be a 24 or 36 hour, very hallucinatory experience. But people come out of these experiences often no longer craving opioids after being addicted to heroin or

Unknown Speaker 30:20
prescription opioids for four years.

Unknown Speaker 30:23
Again, you know, like you’re saying, these these don’t work for everybody is not a cure all. And psychedelic therapy, it was really never just the, the drug itself. It’s always the way in which it’s done. It’s always the preparation, the support of psychotherapy, and then the integration, which is how people shift their lives. Do they go into more healthy practices? Do they change their relationships? Do they change where they live? Do they shift their goals afterwards? So I began can be this kind of like, instantaneous relief for a lot of people, but if they don’t then make a lot of changes? Yeah, yeah, they almost always relapse so that there’s there has to be that continued work. It’s never going to be a cure all for for any of these treatments. Really. And Ibogaine just can look so dramatic. Yeah.

John Malanca 31:15
You know, so sometimes, like you mentioned it, you it’s not for everybody, and you know, a lot of patients and friends that I’ve spoken to over the years, you know it when they feel depression, they feel it’s a it’s a feeling of weakness, like, Why Why is it affecting me, and they’re afraid to share this. And so it’s yours, a built up sadness and hurt and memories, as I was talking about in love and grief and war, loss of job loss of life. You know, loss of, you know, what they what they mean, in this world. And so, I think it’s great that, you know, you come on, you’re coming on the show to talk about this, because people call us and say help. Have you ever heard of this? Have you ever done this? And so that’s why I wanted want to do this, because a lot of people self medicate, not only with their other drugs, alcohol, food, electronics, you know, the list goes on. And so it’s not just, I’m just sitting here, you know, overdosing on opioids, it’s a mixture of everything to what are the long term effects on on the brain? Do we know that yet? I know, you said there’s no we don’t know the micro dosing it with with mushrooms. Are there long term or short term short term side effects at all?

Unknown Speaker 32:31
Well, the only source that we have for really long term data on use would be demographic data. And a lot of that demographic data, people using psychedelics outside of clinical trials is going to be skewed. Because it’s impossible, or very nearly impossible to separate groups who works, for example, just using MDMA and not using alcohol or

John Malanca 32:57
so there’s so there are drug to drug interactions with these two, there are drug

Unknown Speaker 33:01
to drug interactions, and there’s, and there’s challenges in the statistics too. So for example, when we see emergency room admission statistics and says X number of people were admitted to the emergency room due to taking ecstasy or MDMA. It won’t also tell you that actually, the reason they were in the emergency room was the alcohol they drunk. It’s just if they also reported having taken ecstasy, that it’s an ecstasy admission. So there’s that there’s also the fact that often people who use one of these drugs will use multiple drugs, we can’t sort out which risks are from which, but as far as the long term studies that have been done two things. One, there’s significantly less neurotoxicity, or neurocognitive risks than has been touted in the mainstream media for the last 50 years as again, not to say that there aren’t risks there are exclusion factors in in the research trials, and there will be exclusion factors for people who want to receive this treatment, different kinds of mental conditions, neurological conditions, cardiovascular conditions, there’s all sorts of things that can exclude somebody from being a contender for psychedelic therapy. But in general, the long term studies are showing that there is just not this long term risk. You know, the second piece of that is that, unlike when you’re taking a drug every day, the side effects are just going to be way lower. When you’re taking when you’re really just going through the treatment two or three times a conventional model of MDMA therapy or psilocybin therapy, you only receive the drug on two or three different occasions, and the rest is psychotherapy. So any side effects they’re only happening while you’re under the influence of the drug

John Malanca 34:55
shit, since it’s not legal and still schedule one Are these underground psycho therapists that are saying yes wink wink we do these treatments are I mean, it’s I know that so they legalized it in. I want to say Colorado, right? Is that the only state in our nation that that is? Well,

Unknown Speaker 35:15
yes and no. The legalization I just want to distinguish from decriminalization, okay, we have a long way to go before any of these psychedelics are actually legal for adult use anywhere in the US decriminalization in Oregon and Colorado, in in the Bay Area in the San Francisco Bay Area. That’s about making psychedelics, especially plant based psychedelics, or fungus based psychedelics, the lowest priority for law enforcement, it’s following a similar path that we saw for cannabis is first, it was a lower priority for law enforcement, than it was zero priority for law enforcement. And then we started to have medical use and available for some people for some reasons, and then we have it available for adults further down the road. Now, I just want to make a note on on legal use and legalization around psychedelics is, although there’s all this major excitement around psychedelics as being the next cannabis, I can’t, you know, just having been in the field. And having watched what’s happened with cannabis and seeing what’s happening with psychedelics, it’s not going to be the same thing for a very long time. If If, if ever, first of all the market for the patient base for cannabis is and has always been way bigger than for psychedelics we have. I don’t know what it is 50% percent or two thirds of the country have tried cannabis I’ve

Unknown Speaker 36:55
maybe or two third?

Unknown Speaker 36:58

Unknown Speaker 36:59
Yeah, have tried it at some point in their lives, psychedelics, maybe, maybe 20%.

Brad Burge 37:05

John Malanca 37:06
intermediate because it’s still, you know, a taboo for a lot of conversations.

Unknown Speaker 37:10
Also, that also as these things get less taboo, we’re gonna see more people admitting it, it might be more than that. In either case, it’s certainly going to be less than what is out there for cannabis. Yeah. And, you know, this being you know, psychedelics are inherently more vital, I guess you could argue this, but but significantly mind altering, and they’re using especially large doses requires preparation and support, and some kind of guidance. So that means that we’re moving primarily towards a world where we have psychedelics available in clinics, through your doctor, not as take home drugs, these aren’t going to be over the counter for a very long time. They’re also not going to be available retail for a very long time. Just because of their different risk levels and the different ways that they’re used.

John Malanca 38:05
So different ways you use in the different types and we touched up on just you know, ketamine, MDMA. I’m mispronouncing it Ibogaine, Ibogaine was how you pronounce it.

Unknown Speaker 38:17

John Malanca 38:18
Ibogaine, excuse me. And then and then mushrooms, then I wasco and so Ibogaine, mushrooms iwoca. Those are the natural ones. The other ones are man made correct.

Unknown Speaker 38:34
By and large. Yeah, there’s also pod pod. Yeah, us and San Pedro. Those are not being with that in clinical trials right now but are gaining more popularity, especially as religious or ceremonial tools. They’re both legal for you such as San Pedro and

Unknown Speaker 38:56
Pedro, you’re both legal by the Native American church.

John Malanca 38:58
What was there was a book I read in high school. Gosh, it was some Carlos maybe it Carlos

Unknown Speaker 39:08
Castaneda got it. Yes.

John Malanca 39:09
And there is there. There is a there is a What was it? He did a he has a whole series where there was a book I think he was following Indian guide and he ate the sun pod. And next thing you know, he was chasing the dog around her. You read that story? Oh, it was a funny, my aunt gave me that book. And I did.

Unknown Speaker 39:31
And I did. I i did i remember that. I remember when I was in. I was in college. I was at Stanford. I was I was learning about the history of these drugs. Yeah. And I’m glad I had Carlos caston ADA and Alan Watts to teach me rather than stumbling upon them at some kind of a rave or something I thought my experience was was very different as a result. When

John Malanca 39:56
you go into Stanford, so did they talk about it because a lot of doctors go to medical school and they don’t talk about cannabis. And so in your in your classes and courses, is this something that, of course that you did take on this or is this something that

Unknown Speaker 40:10
you had an interest

Unknown Speaker 40:11
in? Yeah, I, I was both both Stanford based in Palo Alto was, you know, were arguably discovered, right, that the counterculture originated, LSD was discovered in Germany, or in Switzerland, okay, in the 1940s. But it was through the Veterans Administration experiments in the 1960s in Palo Alto right next door to Stanford, that LSD, entered the counterculture through Ken Kesey and others. So I was going to school in this place, and taking history classes and learning about the history of the counterculture. I was interested in psychology and communications and how these drugs changed over over time. So I had the opportunity to have an LSD experience and my junior year, at the same time that I was taking a class on 1960s history and got to write a paper about it. So it was kind of an academic exploration. For me, research wasn’t like us. It wasn’t even a social or a party thing. But it’s just, you know, how can I understand what’s Yeah, what’s going on here. And that’s why I’m so passionate about education around psychedelics, because I think, if you come to these with an understanding that they need to be used carefully, with preparation and integration and support, rather than coming to them with this idea that you’re going to get out of your head, or you’re going to be able to avoid your issues or simply just have fun. Without any sort of care preparation, I think you’re likely to get into a lot of trouble.

John Malanca 41:51
Thanks for that warning, I want back to the mushroom because you hear a lot of you know, I’ve heard about it growing up here in the Bay Area, you know, people going up and kicking over cow patties, which are the counters to our non farming families here. And just picking mushrooms, can you can you share the warning that not all mushrooms are psychedelic mushrooms, and, you know, just don’t start picking mushrooms and, and, and putting them in your mouth? And keep talking about how to consume them? Because you can eat them? Which they have an awful taste. To some you can put them in teas or quiche, can you share one about the warning but also to on how to consume?

Unknown Speaker 42:33
Well, I’ll just I’ll just support your warning there, john? Absolutely. Yeah, if you don’t know for sure you can eat it. Don’t eat it. Don’t eat it.

Brad Burge 42:45
Eat it. Yeah. And then your other question was?

John Malanca 42:51
Yeah, on how to consume it, you know, back to donate it but also eating it. People put them in teas? Do they? Can you smoke it?

Unknown Speaker 43:02
You know, I’ve never heard of somebody smoking mushrooms? I don’t think you can. That’s certainly not how it’s traditionally done. Yeah, there’s all sorts of ways. There’s all sorts of ways to do it. I’m hesitant to provide exact advice on how to do it. I’ve tried both good ways and really, really bad ways. I think main thing is, talk to somebody who’s done it before and who that you trust. And don’t just take what you find. On the internet. There’s more and more really decent psychedelic education out there online. Lots of webinars and online events, things where you can learn more about what is the preparation, like and what’s the integration like. Also, just be careful about the source. You know, one of the benefit of all these clinical trials and the decriminalization is it opens up an opportunity for us to know, dosages and purities. Thank you. And we don’t have that now.

John Malanca 43:59
And I wasn’t asking you what dose more is not better is that the same thing like in cannabis I always tell people is more is not better. And a lot of that’s it

Unknown Speaker 44:06
exactly the same as with cannabis. You know, we’re talking about micro dosing versus psychedelic therapy. Depends what the condition is, and we’re still learning what that’s for. And of course, there’s people talking a lot about not just for therapeutic uses, but microdosing for creativity or professional growth, cognitive enhancement, or

John Malanca 44:24
even relationship growth. I heard a lot of couples have issues and bringing them back together. And I’ve even heard a lot of cancer patients that are just so depressed because of this diagnosis, that they’re just pushing their family away and there’s like, you know, we don’t want you to leave but we we don’t want you to shut yourself off either. And so are there any medical benefits you’re talking about the the beginning of the show when I went into we’re talking about brain and I think inflammation and you know, cannabis has been proven to help patients with brain issues dementia, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, you Are you seeing that any medical benefits besides helping with the depression and other other other things like this, but any any reversals of I get brain injury, but I guess depression falls on the same thing there, right?

Unknown Speaker 45:14
Yeah. Yes, so fascinating where the neuroscientific technology and imaging is getting so good now that it’s often hard to tell the difference between what is a physical brain disease and what’s a mental illness? Yeah. What is the difference between our brains and our minds? And the border there is getting thinner and thinner as far as science is, is concerned. So yeah, I think we can look at healing depression, healing, PTSD, healing anxiety as regrowing neural pathways, we’re changing neural pathways. But, and this is one of the projects that I’m working on that I’m really excited about actually is Ibogaine. And its potential as a treatment for traumatic brain injury. traumatic brain injury, which is very common in especially military veterans. Lots of other folks to first responders, a lot construction workers, traumatic brain injury can happen a lot for a lot of different reasons. It’s often associated with PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder and the actual physical wounding to the brain often go hand in hand and and the TBI element that is often hidden. And the treatment focuses on the PTSD Oh, this person’s depressed this person can’t sleep this person suicidal, this person’s angry, let’s let’s let’s treat those and that’s where the antidepressants get thrown at people. But

Unknown Speaker 46:40
we don’t always work

Unknown Speaker 46:42
which don’t always work for a third of people. They don’t work at all. Yeah. And when they work, they’re more or less effective depending on who you are. With Ibogaine there is evidence that Ibogaine specifically can help release a compound in the brain. called gdnF. glia derived neurotrophic factor it’s it’s a it’s a compound that helps nerve cells actually physically regrow, remake those physical connections you can see this gdnF working in the brain to enhance that connectivity. So there’s a new nonprofit called veterans exploring treatment solutions. That’s Inc. That I’m working with. They are raising funds to send Special Forces veterans outside the US to receive Ibogaine therapy for the treatment of both TBI and post traumatic stress

John Malanca 47:35
disorder while they’re still enlisted. Veterans. Oh, excuse me. Apologies to the veterans giving

Unknown Speaker 47:41
Yeah, veterans, we would love to start working with active duty for a sense for that. We have some political hurdles to get through. First, and so that’s this nonprofit is now working with Stanford University, my alma mater, I’m super excited about that, to do a brain imaging study of these special forces fats, so that’s navy seals, other special operations, veterans, to get brain imaging to see if the benefits that they get for PTSD from Ibogaine therapy also have these neurological changes happening as well. So that’s it a place where a psychedelic is being looked at not as a mental illness treatment, but as a treatment for a physiological neural condition. And are the

John Malanca 48:28
vets totally open to this that are going through through something is is tough and rough is is depression, but PTSD.

Unknown Speaker 48:36
These folks all guys so far, because Special Forces, I just learned that there are no women in the Special Forces right now. At least in the Navy SEALs. So these guys are at the end of their rope off of their families are breaking up. They’re suicidal. The idea of going through a 24 to 36 hour, intense hellacious experience just doesn’t seem like that.

Unknown Speaker 49:00
big of a sacrifice

John Malanca 49:02
that that not that big of a what’s right,

Unknown Speaker 49:06
not that big of a deal. not that big of a deal, right? Because of what they’re all because of what they’re already got. You’re going through that’s kind of a compelling thing. So there’s a long waitlist for these grants now. Over 80 folks right now so that that’s just one thing that I’m excited about beyond the mental illnesses. Cool. Cool.

John Malanca 49:24
So you mentioned mentioned grants what what’s the cost for all these? Because I know healthcare is very expensive when it comes to even go cannabis cannabis is expensive to a lot of people. But But patients that are using the antidepressants I work with you know, I have friends that are going through this right now that my friends are going through major pain and they’re having their you know, some of their medicine is not covered by insurance and I’m certain this isn’t covered by insurance either yet, but so what does it cost? Does it break down from all different types. I mean, I’m again I’m known as Ibogaine or Ibogaine. Iboga Ibogaine, I heard it’s about $6,000 a dose, is that correct?

Unknown Speaker 50:09
That’s probably reasonable. It’s going to depend on which treatment center you go to. There’s also travel costs associated because you have to go outside the US to do it very clearly. Not a lot of people can afford that. Especially out of pocket. Yeah. So for yeah for of course, it’s psychedelic therapy, whether it’s ketamine therapy or Ibogaine therapy. MDMA therapy is only available in research right now. Same with psilocybin therapy. The first ketamine, Ibogaine, yeah, you’re talking a few thousand dollars to 10 $20,000 for a whole comprehensive multi week psychotherapeutic thing, depending on the retreat center, depending on the clinic again. So that is, that’s a big challenge for the industry. That’s a huge challenge is making the treatment accessible to people. And one way to do that is to cut back on the therapy cut back on the support, which increases your risk and decreases your effectiveness. Or to develop scholarships for people who don’t otherwise have the means to access these, and some groups are doing this. And another way to do it. And I think a parallel way to do it is to just work to get insurance coverage, as hard as possible for these treatments, and also coverage and public health care plans. Just last week, there’s a new publication by some authors associated with maps, that did an economic analysis of MDMA assisted psychotherapy. So this is a hypothetical paper, but it was published in a peer reviewed journal, showing the net cost benefits to giving people MDMA assisted psychotherapy, rather than what other other what other treatments they would be getting. So that’s long term quality of life, that’s long term healthcare utilization costs. And this paper shows how much money is going to be saved. So this is, you know, it’s like, we can’t express this clearly enough in human terms and talking about all the human lives that are going to be saved and, and, and the relationships that are going to be saved by making these treatments more accessible. So let’s talk about money. And if we can show in actual money, what is going to be saved by giving people say, a three week or three month course of psychedelic therapy, which costs native costs 510 $20,000 versus the rest of their life, going to psychotherapy, taking daily medications and paying those fees. And even if you’re like, Oh, that’s, you know, 10 20,000 that’s a lot of money. Well think about the next 40 years of prescription drug expenses and therapy expenses. And when you put them up like that, ensures, hopefully won’t have any sort of problem paying that up front psychedelic therapy cost,

John Malanca 53:01
you know, hopefully it’ll get that way. And I know, you know, we’re talking to insurance companies that are trying to insure cannabis as a plan back to preventative care. About 1011 years ago, my mom, you know, my mom’s insurance company called her and said, Hey, Miss Malanca, we’d like to you know, you’re healthy. You’ve you haven’t been using your insurance, but we’d like to buy you a lifetime gym membership. Pick one of these five or six companies. Yeah, I thought how brilliant is that? And I guess, you know, and she used it, she used every girl for at three, knock on wood. She’s still you know, COVID she hasn’t been in the gym, but she still walks you know, she’ll still drive down from the Bay Area down to Southern California see my brother at 83 and you know, my brother’s like, she might she’s perfectly fine, you know, and so thinking outside the box for the long term and I think you know, to help the patients help the families like you say, and long term cost of health care It almost sounds like a no brainer, so it does you know, hopefully that’s that’s the goal and and we hit that before it’s too late You know, before we lose more people to depression or suicide as you as you were talking about I’m sure they all take have a different on take, you know, sounds like ketamine, ingesting is that is that instantaneous were eating something like mushrooms Is it like eating something like a cannabis brownie where it takes 45 minutes to an hour and a half? Sometimes it depends on what you have in your system and how your how your system is built up. That’s the same.

Unknown Speaker 54:36
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. With with ketamine nasal spray, that’s gonna be a take home treatment. There are also a lot of ketamine clinics where you can get ketamine therapy right there. And it’s done via it. It may be done intramuscularly it may be done with with a lozenge. There’s a lot of different ways that ketamine injectable

Unknown Speaker 54:56
as your Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 54:58
Yeah, they’ll do that in a clinic. as well. physicians have a lot of different ways that they can administer ketamine. It’s actually been administered in off label for psychotherapy for decades. It’s just now just been approved. So now insurance companies will pay for

John Malanca 55:16
in Johnson and Johnson leading the way with with ketamine

Unknown Speaker 55:22
rather the first Yeah, they’re the first one to get an approval for a patented ketamine delivery system. But most of the ketamine clinics are using generic ketamine, which is significantly significantly cheaper, like by an order of magnitude. So there’s still a lot of a lot of motivation, a lot of reason for other pharmaceutical development companies, nonprofit or for profit to get generic ketamine out there. Quickly,

John Malanca 55:54
I’m certain the pharmaceutical companies once they see that it’s a moneymaker, though they’ll be jumping into this into this market, like they’re like they’re starting to do here. And

Unknown Speaker 56:05
yeah, yeah. And I really want to, you know, take this opportunity to just like, clarify for all those folks who might be listening and considering seeking out ketamine therapy, it’s just to emphasize that if there’s no therapy associated with receiving the ketamine, it’s not going to work as well.

John Malanca 56:26
And break that down for our listenership. There’s no therapy.

Unknown Speaker 56:30
Yeah, yeah. If there’s no therapy, if there’s no preparation support, if there’s no support for the emotions, or the insights that you have that come up during that process, before, after, or ideally, both, you know, I’d seriously reconsider this, this this practice, there’s a huge profit motivation for people to receive just a dose of ketamine come in a month later, when their depression comes back and keep doing that month after month after month after month forever. That is not the real promise of psychedelic therapy. It may help. And it may help a lot for a long time. But imagine if you could just go in once a year, once every few months, once every six months, just just know that that preparation, that guidance, and that integration is going to save your pocketbook. It’s going to it’s going to save your time and hopefully get better insights for you.

John Malanca 57:26
Great for that. So for treatment, you gave us kind of a timeline. But on a dose if someone took I’ll use mushrooms again, since we were starting on that. How long is is is the same there were trip, but how long is his experience?

Unknown Speaker 57:45
Sure, let’s let’s go with it. Yeah, mushrooms, you know, if you if you eat them, you know, just the raw, dried, dried stuff is probably 30 minutes to an hour for it to come on. And then you’re talking a three to six hour experience. With MDMA, it’s three to five hours or four to six hours on LSD. It could be eight to 10 or more.

John Malanca 58:15
Do you do back to the LSD that we’re I’m bouncing off? This is really I know probably our listeners are hanging on the edge of their seat. So flashbacks Do you ever get thought I could always you’d always hear LSD flashbacks is just something that happens with other psychedelics.

Unknown Speaker 58:34
Well, flashbacks as a negative like a as a negative side effects haven’t

John Malanca 58:40
Yeah, me because I you know, you know, and I was in college, I you know, you be I was some buddies, and they’re, like, I said, What’s going on? And they say, I think I’m having I tried LSD, you know, three weeks ago or a month ago, and I’m and I’m, you know, feeling that again, it’s how long do you stay in the system?

Unknown Speaker 58:57
Yeah, it doesn’t stay in the system for long. Okay. So just the next day, okay, shouldn’t that there shouldn’t be any pharmaceutical effects left, but the memories and the impacts can can certainly stay. I think the idea of a flashback is much like it’s been pathologized that there’s material that’s coming up. There are maybe neural connections that have been made, or memories that have come up as a result of the experience that haven’t been fully processed yet. And so people see these insights, as is these things that come out of nowhere, but maybe it’s your mind telling you that there’s some other aspect that needs to be addressed. That’s a flashbacks as a pathology hasn’t been seen in the clinical trials.

John Malanca 59:45
So the mind so open the mind, bring it all in. We started out with like, at the beginning of our show, we are talking about how crinan I met you. Actually we met you at society for As clinician this conference, and that’s why we’ve said, Oh, are you ready to hear at this cannabis conference in Colorado, you know, and you were sharing that you were with maps and the topic was migraines and mushrooms. Can you talk about that?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:14
Yeah. Yeah, actually the the use of LS but LSD and psilocybin mushrooms for the treatment of cluster headaches and migraines is one of the areas of interest in this field that’s been going on the longest. And yet, there’s still very little, little research into it. And there’s a lot of case reports that have shown that this is probably what we talked about is a lot of these reports have shown that people with these untreatable migraines or cluster headaches that haven’t responded to any other painkillers or conventional treatments can be stopped immediately, instantaneously. Yeah, by these, what are called serotonergic psychedelics. So LSD and psilocybin these drugs that work very specifically on the serotonin system, we don’t know how that might be happening. neuroscientists don’t know. There’s a great organization called cluster that tracks the research that is going on. So there’s excellent promise, whether it’s due to reducing inflammation or some other some other process that’s happening using those for treatment headaches.

John Malanca 1:01:20
When we talk that day leap one from TSC, down to the shuttle in Denver Airport. maybe I misunderstood you, was it shutting off receptor in the brain? That is that is bringing that pain for migraine headache?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:35
That that may be? I’m not aware of any neuroimaging research. That’s specific, but it’s certainly working on the serotonin system. Yeah.

John Malanca 1:01:46
How does someone find it? Well, first of all, for our listeners to I have to do a disclaimer to protect Brad as well as myself. This is for informational purposes only. So it doesn’t replace a one on one with a medical professional and then leading into that I was how to stop someone find someone. I mean, it’s not in the in I was saying the Yellow Pages phonebook. No, no, no, I mean, that’s that’s our old school. But do they go online and say, you know, type in Phil Simon, therapist, you know that you do like a psychotherapist. I mean, what are they looking for?

Unknown Speaker 1:02:18
Well, you got to know what’s legal and available at this point. Right now, the only legal psychedelic therapy in the US is going to be ketamine assisted therapy. Not sure. But that’s the only one the others, MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, psilocybin assisted therapy for depression, those are still in clinical trials. So the only way to receive that is to get involved in one of those clinical trials legally, legally, legally. That’s right. That’s right. There are other resources. Yeah. So one thing to look for is integration, psychedelic integration providers. And those are therapists who are familiar with psychedelic experiences, they’re not going to stigmatize. But they’re there to talk about psychedelic experiences, and help work through them.

John Malanca 1:03:06
And I’m sorry, go on.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:09
Yeah. And just, you know, there’s

Unknown Speaker 1:03:13
also places outside of the US. So I wasco retreat centers, Ibogaine retreat centers, that you can also visit with a lot of due diligence,

John Malanca 1:03:24
a lot of guidance, you know, I have had friends that have done Iosco, I’ve never tried it. We worked with a lot of groups that have worked down there in the Amazon, and they should come on down, you know, they invited crinan down there was actually I won’t say the, the fundraising group for the the Amazon, but they said, whenever they go down there, they do a guided iOS gun. And I was surprised that Craig was like, you know, I’d probably do it. She was someone who didn’t drink in the smoke, you know, air x i looked at, I said, Yeah, you would actually do this. And she’s, I think I would, you know, you know, but it has a lot of health benefits, you know, people that when krin passed, I had a few doctors and nurses in the industry who do guided treatments, and they asked me So, you know, I don’t know where my mind is, right now. I want to I want to get my mind, you know, out of this grief and depression of current passing, and so maybe I should have tried it then. Maybe would have helped. I’m not sure. Do you? Wait, what would you recommend for you know, like a case study like me? You know, someone is, we’re all different. I know that.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:34
Yeah. That’s why I was gonna say it’s just also individual. You know, I’ve been talking about psychedelics for years and years and, you know, being so excited about the research that’s happening. I’ve had so many people say, you know, is this is this going to be right for me, and I like to like to repeat something that one of my friends and mentors Jim Fado Then has set old, old school psychologist from Stanford and has done a bunch of micro dosing research actually. And what he says is, if you can think of any reason not to do psychedelics, any at all?

Unknown Speaker 1:05:18
Don’t do them

Brad Burge 1:05:19
don’t do. Don’t do.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:22
Yeah. Now, lots of other folks are gonna have lots of other opinions on that. But that, for me is a mental test is, you know, do you have a resistance here, if you have a resistance to it, explore that first. Because if you go into a psychedelic experience, not wanting to, yeah, it’s not going to be as effective. And it might be very difficult. So I think just like be aware of what your intentions are going into it. I think a lot of people ask that at the beginning of the pandemic, actually, this is, you know, all of this crazy stuff happening in the world is now a great time or a terrible time to be using psychedelics, I think it varies widely. Depending on the person, for some people, it’s going to be a great time, open up that plasticity, be ready to receive new information and make adjustments to your lifestyle and your relationships. Or that’s going to open things up even more, I’m going to become too sensitive, and I’m going to get overwhelmed, I just need to focus on what’s right in front of me, that might be the right choice for people to so I think it’s consultation with a therapist, or a friend, somebody who’s familiar with psychedelics in the experience before making that decision.

John Malanca 1:06:30
If someone’s doing this with a guided guided shaman, because my friends have done this mission with shamans, and they’ve done one on one, but they also done, you know, a group in the What do you call it? The, the sweat lodge? And they’ve done it with numerous others. And so, you know, with the guidance, so I just think, you know, for our listeners researching, because it is interesting, it definitely definitely is interesting. Keep talking about misconceptions. I mean, because everyone, you know, has this mind thought of what, even with cannabis, and now people are like, Oh, I didn’t realize that now. I mean, everyone’s talking about I have hiccups. And I use cannabis. You know, I have everyone talks about it. And it’s it’s free flowing even my mom goes to church six days a week and to hear their, their their little luncheons and people know the topic is cannabis. And one of her girlfriends. Who said, I just found out that she’s had headaches for years. And I said, Mom, I know she doesn’t even drink and she knows she’s not into cannabis. But she may want to research mushrooms, you know, hope I’m not offending her. But these are, this is why this topic, people come to us. And so thank you again, for our listeners who who, who kept on saying, hey, do you know anything about this? Do you know anything about and that’s the reason why I reached out to Brad for for this topic. And so can you talk about some of the misconceptions about psychedelic drugs? Phyllis, Phil, aside, Phil aside, Ben right.

Brad Burge 1:08:00

John Malanca 1:08:02
and, and and as uses, and so he talked about that.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:06
Just generally, you know, I think the biggest misconception is that there a cure all is that one experience is going to be enough to to reduce the PTSD symptoms of the depression system symptoms or to get somebody off of opioids. And yet just can’t emphasize enough. But that’s that’s not the case. Conventional pharmaceutical psychiatry wants us to believe that there are these cures out there, there’s these keys that fit in the locks of our brains, and they’ll just turn and that error in our brain will be fixed. You know, that’s not the model that psychedelic therapy is working on. It’s about creating the experience. And the support that people need to make those changes themselves in a lasting way. So it’s not going to be the drug, if anybody comes out and says, I’ve got the psychedelic, that’s gonna cure you have X, Y, or Z, I just be very skeptical.

John Malanca 1:08:59
I recently heard a speaker talking on this, and she their exact thing is, it’s not the mushroom that’s gonna unlock the depression. It’s the patient that has the key and able to do that. And so for you, you you bring that up, follow up on that, that I appreciate that too. I really appreciate what you what you’re doing. I’d love to get you back on the show. But can you talk about integration communications or what you’re doing now? I know you’ve been with maps for

10 years, right? 10 plus 10

Brad Burge 1:09:31
years? Yes.

John Malanca 1:09:32
Yeah. Thanks. You know, and so you were definitely ahead of the game, I should say, because a lot of people were just, you know, popping into the Oh, here’s a new topic was let’s go into it. So you this has been something you’ve been doing for a while. So you left match, and you started integrated communications. And Chuck, can you share what you’re doing for our listeners and how to find you as well?

Unknown Speaker 1:09:58
Yeah, absolutely. First, I just want to say apses just still fantastic. I was just writing to Rick Doblin today and so excited for what they’re doing. When I first started with them in 2009, I was an intern I was still in grad school, I was an intern doing some editing for them. And if you wanted to work in psychedelics like actually have a job where you could say I work in psychedelics legally. And this is something that’s actually working maps was one of the only two, maybe maybe the only one organization that was focused on that now, I feel like after 10 years, I’ve looked up from this nonprofit, which has grown to be a multinational, multi a corporation. With studies all over the world that this whole field has emerged this whole industry, this whole, and hundreds, there’s there were 400, plus psychedelic businesses, including ketamine clinics last time I checked, and that’s, that’s huge. So with maps, just advancing fullsteam, towards the finish line with MDMA assisted psychotherapy, we just raised $30 million for the capstone campaign to complete that, it just feels like there’s so much happening in the field that I want to be able to help these other groups that don’t have the resources to have a whole communications program. And that’s, that’s new companies, who are, that is pharmaceutical companies or retreat centers, who are just learning about psychedelics and how to communicate about them in in a responsible, and transparent and ethical way. And then there’s also companies have been around for a longer time that are trying to expand California Institute of integral studies is one of those that has the leading training program for psychedelic therapists, based in San Francisco, I get to help them now. Promote that training program. So I’m excited to be able to help out all of these new folks who are coming into the field, wanting to say, you know, how do I position myself? How do I not come across as either a hippie or a radical but yet, how do I still share how excited I am about these, whatever, whether it’s a new product, or new therapy method, or a new research program, or a new educational service. So I’m just learning about all of these new these new folks in the field and doing what I can to help them get the word out.

John Malanca 1:12:22
But I think you’re definitely at the forefront. And like you said, it’s not for everyone, but I do believe it will revolutionize healthcare. You know, this is what we’re, we’re here for to get this information out. As I mentioned, I don’t know if it was on camera or off camera. But a lot of times I i route patients and families away from cannabis, you know, because it’s not a it’s not a cure, I’ll never say cure. You know, but I’ve seen higher success rates on stuff I’ve seen in integrative oncology, functional medicine, you know, acupuncture, meditation, and because of you, and really, because you back in 2011, or 12, or 13, when we, when we did have that walk from the, you know, in the terminal. This has been in my toolbox to share with people go do some research, you know, I don’t know much about it, but do some research. And that’s why I wanted you on the on the show. And so I really appreciate you taking time to be on and thank you for our listeners for keep on poking me and say, you know, here’s some other topics. So if you have other topics you want us to cover. We’re this is what we’re here for. This is why I do this do this podcast. Brad, you have any final words closing words you want to share with our with our listeners?

Unknown Speaker 1:13:40
You know, thanks so much for bringing psychedelics into this conversation. I really do think they’re the next big promising thing. It’s still not too late. We’re still at the very beginning of this field. So thanks for covering it now. There’s a lot more stuff coming down the runway as far as psychedelics are concerned, so I just, I just can’t wait to keep sharing that.

John Malanca 1:14:06
Cool. Thank you and how can we get a hold of you?

Unknown Speaker 1:14:09
integration communications comm got a contact form right there. That’s probably the best way at Brad integration communications comm please feel free to reach out we’d love to chat with people about this field. Awesome.

John Malanca 1:14:23
Brad birge thank you so much for being with us. And everyone for our listeners for for spending another hour with us as well as John Malanca with the United patients group. Be informed and be well and we’ll see you soon. Thanks again. Leave your comments below and topics that you want us to cover. We’ll see you soon. Bye bye.

Brad Burge 1:14:47
Boom, stop that Eric. I was ended the whole meeting.